Blame Spinoza, he is the one who told me to blog this...
Yes I know Homo Erectus has nothing to do with gays :P
Ah, well this is certainly different than the many political debates I get in on here....
Blogging Buffoon Activated
Damn fu has blog limit..so for .. this is part two...For part I click here
for all... three of you actually who keep telling me to update this crap... youtube debates are fun....
@waxxjf: :) You just need to understand what I'm trying to say. So I'll sum up in this message.
1. Jesus may not have outright spoken against homosexuality, but that doesn't mean that He condoned the process. Jesus is God, the Son of God. Thus, He humbles Himself to the Father, and agrees with the Father. He is in the Father, and the Father in Him. If God the Father instituted a law against homosexuality, He will not disagree with the Father, but on the contrary, agree with Him. Thus, if God the Father says that it is an abomination, Jesus will agree with Him. It's common sense.
That alone shows that you need to think about what you're telling me before you type it. I'm telling you, He never talked about beastiality either; never condemned it; but does that mean that He condoned it? If you deny this claim, then you belief in a ridiculous claim. I'm sorry, I'm trying to be loving, but you are lashing out, so I have to state it as it is.
2. The statistics themselves are unbiased. You see, I've looked up statistics that support homosexuality; they are unbiased as well. I can't invalidate them just because I'm against them. In fact, I believe that they are valid. However, they only state hate-crimes and population statistics. They don't necessarily give a good view for homosexuality, they just state general truths, such as in 1973, it was removed as a disease, or statistics against hate crimes. I don't condone hate crimes; I believe we should show love towards homosexuals. However, that doesn't condone the action. My statistics show the physical harm in homosexuality. They are valid statistics. Are you sure you aren't disowning them just because they are against your cause?
3. The many religions? I can't disown this claim. However, you have to understand a few things. A. The earliest known "Savior" religion; B. Palestine between 6 B.C.-30 A.D. (The context of the situation itself, such as if such religions surrounded Palestinian area) C. The validity of these religions.
4. I'm not claiming that atheists don't have moral values. I do claim, however, that they don't have objective moral values. As in, their moral values are either self-fabricated or adopted. In Christianity, we are given a law to abide by; thus, we have objective moral values.
5. Christ's coming was predicted all the way back at the fall of man, in the book of Genesis. Genesis 3:15 is a direct prediction from God himself. Predictions all over the New Testament assert the coming of a Messiah, thus, the original Messiah originates from the beginning. Jesus is the first proclaimed Savior. And the only one. :)
6. Your claims for the inconsistencies in the text? State a few. :)
7. I won't argue with you about "bigoted" love. I know my own motives, and you can assume what you want. Analyze your own motives for arguing against me and compare them to mine. Be honest, and tell me why you say what you do, and I'll be honest too. I've already stated mine; I care about you and I care about homosexuals, and I want them to see that the way they live is destructive. I can see that from here. However, I want to show them a better life; and they have to make the choice. I can't force anything on anyone. However, whether you think it's bigoted or not does not make it bigoted. Your logic is prone to error, and cannot evaluate my motives. So. :)
8. Once again, there are 3 different rules in Leviticus; Ceremonial, Civil, Moral. Not eating shellfish, Sabbath regulations, etc. are no longer in effect, but God's moral laws are still in effect. Such as, men laying with other men, incest, bestiality, etc. :) God's Word does not change. However, the civil and ceremonial laws were specified for Israel.
9. I am not judging, as I've stated previously; God's Word judges. I cannot judge, I only speak His word. If you don't like me, that's something I have to live with. The truth hurts, friend.
God bless :) anything else? Let's try to keep this on a friendlier level, btw.
@Addy4473: I understood well and clear what you were trying to say, I just do not believe it. So therefore since I hold no belief in what you believe your issues of morality and sin, I would never agree with more than likely. But sure, I shall address your points as I have gotten them in numbered faction.
1] Yes I am well aware of your polytheistic beliefs, well Christians say monotheistic but when you have three entities that make up one, that is still a polytheistic belief.
Anyway let me now address your points. Jesus if you read the bible was very outspoken of what he wanted or expected from a people, as well as very outspoken of what he went against. He spoke very harshly against the church of the time, he spoke very harshly of the wealthy, very harshly of the man who could do something but chose not to.
So your saying of all the things that he spoke against, the sins he spoke against, this just happen to slip his mind? You’re saying that him never mentioned it does not mean he condones, I am saying him never mentioning it, does not mean he hated it.
You are speaking from the words of men, not Christ who spoke of men and women, you are speak of god, in the Hebrew bible who spoke against not laying with men as they do women. What you are missing, is the words from your Christ himself.
If you are saying Christ was against this… yet he spoke nothing of it. Yet every other thing pretty much that he was against he spoke against freely.
You are saying God said it, yes I know in Christianity father, son, and holy spirit all make up god, yet even with that logic, saying one said it, does not mean you can just attribute it to the other.
No difference than your not saying something means you endorse it.
“That alone shows that you need to think about what you're telling me before you type”
Oh yea, saying one entity said something, but not the other, means he just went with it, is me having to think… um, no because there is a gaping hole of lack of logic within that illogical circular logic.
Once again, there you go attempting to compare homosexuality to bestiality. So you equate two same sex humans, with sex with an animal?
He would not have to say that because it is unnatural for man to have sex with an animals.
It is not unnatural for two males to have sex, for even before the time of your god, Judaism, Islam, even ancient wall paintings show two men engaging in sex, or the Romans it was no secret that they engaged in some same sex practices.
So do make logical comparisons before debunking your own premise with illogical claims.
2] You say the statistics are unbiased, yet you have not shown me the statistics. What you have done is link me to a site, you, yourself admit is anti-homosexuality. Even that site could not show the statistics themselves.
If you showed me the statistics, and I can read the entire statistic, as well as take the year as a factor within the statistics, then whether I agree with them or not, it would be true or false. But you, by your own admission, do not know the name of the statistics, do not know the group that performed the statistic, do not know if they have website or not.
Of course you believe they are valid, because they support what you believe, and that is that homosexuals are immoral,
Are you trying to use legal remedies for your bible dear sir? To say because it is no longer a mental disorder, or it was added to the hate crime list that that in some way supports your biblical claims?
“Are you sure you aren't disowning them just because they are against your cause?”
What cause? Sir, you have not shown me any statistic.
You have said 73% of gays are depressed, 78% of gays have had some STD.
But you cannot remember where you saw it, you cannot remember what group did the study, and you of course cannot remember their site.
The only site you did link me to, once again, you yourself admitted it was an anti-gay site. Even they could not show the statistics themselves.
3]A - There are many savior religions, or rather there were, many ancient beliefs had some sort of savior within them. Or had people who had been born into beliefs that were said to be prophets.
B- I suppose it depends on what you mean Palestinian make up rather then their religious beliefs.
C. What religion are you speaking of; The spiritualist type of beliefs that you and even the people there now deem as myths and superstition. I mean you cannot be speaking of Islam because islam was not even a religion until hundreds of years later. Or are you referring to the Roman conversion to Christianity?
4] No, in Christianity you have a sense of common sense morality that you think are from a god. They are common sense things, generally as far as your commandments go. That you attempt to say do this not because it is right or wrong, but for the mere fact that some god said it is right or wrong.
That is not objective morality, especially since as I have stated it has been altered several times in its 2000 years since its dawning, objective or rather undistorted it is not.
It is a nice little allegory to tell the people what they should already know, yet that does not make it “the truth” because someone wrote down what either was already written down from Hebrew bible, or wrote down what was already.
5] A prophet coming has been the center for every religion for thousands of years, and for most of them their prophet did come, and for some of them, what do you know those ancients “prophets’ or gods, could do the exact same thing as your Christ, does that make them less than?
First savior? … I guess you never read up on ancient religions.
6] Just a few, of which you will try and explain them I am sure.
One verse states god was pleased with his creation Genesis 1:31, yet later in genesis it says god was not pleased genesis 6:5-6.
Also in genesis it contradicts when Adam dies, one passage states when eating from the tree of knowledge you would die, genesis 2:17 … yet said Adam lived for 930 years genesis 5:5
Hm or when god asked cain where is his brother, genesis 4:9 … yet in several verses I could name god speaking of no one being able to hide from em, and he is everywhere and sees everything and that nothing is hidden to him, would you like the verses to this?
As well as in genesis they have noah entering his Ark for the first time…and then a few verses later have him entering the ark for the first time yet again, Genesis 7:7 and genesis 7:13.
In matthew jesus heals two blind men, in mark he only heals one.
Revelation 8:7.. fields of grass were burned…relevation 9:4. no grass was burned and nothing green was to be burned,
God said noah, job and a few others were righteous yet in romans 3:10 says that no one is righteous
Okay I have given you seven, I could have given you several more but I shall stop here.
7] Once again, it is bigoted if it comes with conditions, or if you are hating or disliking, or finding in them just for who they are. That is bigotry, to judge not based on a person for what they have done, but for simply who they are. Be it because they gay, black, white, muslim etc.
I have already told you my reasons, I accept all people, I do not care of your beliefs, I do not care of your sexual orientation, I do not care of your race, ethnicity, gender, I can be cool with everyone, and I do not judge them based on these things. I do judge them for what they do, how they treat others.
Yet you are judging people, not for anything they have done, for simply who they are.
“I want to show them a better life”
You are under the assumption that your life is better. How do you know they are not happy?
I know plenty of homosexual Christians, and the one thing they have in common, is that their god, loves them no matter what, that their god will judge them for what they have done not for who they were born as. They believe that their god is one of love, not hatred but going to judge them for being how they believe he made them.. and they are some of the happiest people I know.
But your staking a claim, they are unhappy and depressed, oh yes disease ridden as well, because of… touching back.. on unsupported statistics.
You saying you judge them for what they are, that is bigotry. Or your saying you are trying to save them from themselves. If everyone truly sins and no sin is greater than the other as you claim. Then why not focus on another, why is this particular group holds such a great destruction to you?
Granted you being an ex homosexuals knows better than I do of such things, maybe you were one of these extreme cases, maybe not. Yet that does not answer the question of why are they are so “lucky” to be targeted.
It is easier to target a minority that is use to being victimized than to look at the mirror and judge ourselves for what we do.
8] wait, did you just say no longer in effect. Wait, did I read that correctly? No longer in effect. You are the one who said gods laws do not change, so if they are no longer in affect.
Speaking of incest, you are aware that there were several incestuous relationships going on in the bible don’t you? Lot slept with his daughters, Abraham married his half sister, Abrahams brother married his niece. Amnon raped his own sister.
…what a sin.
9] Actually you said previously that you are judging out of love, which is still judging.
@waxxjf: Friend, you misunderstand the Holy trinity.
1. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are all God; it's not polytheistic. It's the same idea of family. Multiple persons consist of one family. Thus, The idea that multiple persons can consist of one God is possible. However, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are equal in power. God the Son submits to the Father, and the Spirit is God's presence. The Father and The Son are One. The Bible states that they are one another. Say, for instance, that God the Father condemned murder, but Jesus supported it. If they are both God and contradict one another, then chaos would erupt, and the idea that they are both the same God would fall apart. But they harmonize in perfection with one another. Thus, they do not contradict one another. You lack the understanding of the nature of the Holy Trinity. They are 3 persons in one. They cannot contradict one another, for they are all God. It's confusing, but it's true. There is only one God. It's not polytheistic. Jesus condemns homosexuality.
Yes, He never mentioned it. But He does give God's idea for marriage in Matthew 19. You can't just say that He condones marriage based on your interpretation of His love. His love is vast, as vast as His justice. But He cannot tolerate sin. Homosexuality is a sin. Jesus never condones it. He condemns it. It's not man's word, but God's word. You just fail to understand the relationship.
Look I can see your motive here. You're just trying to irritate me in order to "win". What have you truly won? Your life has no ultimate meaning. You can't even confirm your own truth. I'm trying to help you, and you've done nothing but antagonized me. In your world, we are just accidents. It doesn't matter what you do, just benefit yourself until you die, and that's it. I can't argue with someone that just wants to tear someone down that's trying to help them. I'm sorry if this seems hurtful, but we're both biased here. The only difference is the motive. I want to help you, but you only wish to try to invalidate my Bible. I could continue arguing against you, but it would be to no avail. You've already decided you're going to close your heart against me. I've tried helping you, but Jesus also told me not to dangle pearls in front of swine. Your own biased views have led you into this hateful frenzy. I am a bit irritated, but I still love you. I'm not going to try anymore. I'll keep praying for you. If you think you've won, then it's fine. You'll never truly know until you either give your life to Christ, or you're in hell (which, I don't want you to go there, but I can't make the decision for you). God bless you. :)
@Addy4473: so of everything you asked you only saw it fit to address one…. As I said in my reply to you, I said you believe them to be one already …
Yet it is a bit different than families, surely they are all one family, yet you would not attribute what one said to the other.
“, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are equal in power. God the Son submits to the Father, and the Spirit is God's presence”
They are equal but one is over the rest.. hm,… okay then.
Once again I have already stated that you believe they are one…
“Jesus condemns homosexuality.”
Do show one verse backing up your claim. To say the father, son and holy spirit are three separate entities making up one “god” show any place where Jesus spoke against gays.
I will give you that god “spoke” against gays, as did several others, but jesus never did.
Um, he does give gods idea for marriage, and then you give a gospel which was written by someone else. From a verse that religious scholars are even torn about who wrote it. Some believe Matthew wrote it, other scholars believe a Jewish convert to Christianity wrote it and others believe it can be attributed to the writings of ancient greek, all still show the importance of jesus not writing it.
No where did I say that he “condones’ or demonizing marriage, I said gays, a sexuality is not an act. Sexuality is feeling, marriage is an act. I said gays, not marriage.
You say he condemns it…. Do show a verse where a gospel says jesus says this or that.
Assuming you also already know that many of the gospels were written long after jesus died.
Um, my motives? Let us not forget you commented me on that video. Let us not forget that you first brought up the morality and such when I only answered a guy about if people followed the bible literally.
There is no winning or losing in something that is subjective. There is opinion, you have yours, and I have mines. That is all.
Who said life has no meaning? You say life has a meaning because you have god, I say life’s meaning is what you do with it. Ones life meaning could be the raising of their children, the love within their friendships. Meaning is like faith, subjective to interpretation.
“You can't even confirm your own truth”
Hm, what truth? Everything I said can be backed up with health department.
Then you challenged me to find inconsistencies in the bible, I gave you seven.
Then you spoke of incest being a sin, I gave you several cases of incest in the bible.
So what truths of mines have I not backed up?
In my world, what world is that?
Oh do show me one place, one place where I said what you do in your life does not matter, even one.
“I can't argue with someone that just wants to tear someone down that's trying to help them.”
…from the guy who said you judge them, because you love them… hypocrisy
“I'm sorry if this seems hurtful”
what part of you cannot hurt me did you not get?
Hurt stems from betrayal, and betrayal implies trust.
“I want to help you”
Hm, help me? How are you helping me? We went from you wanting to help gays, and now to me. Even though I have told you I am not gay.
“but you only wish to try to invalidate my Bible”
no where did I invalidate the bible.
You are the one who asked for the inconsistencies, you are the one who spoke of incest.
So because your bible backed up my claim of there being inconsistencies, as well as incest I am the one trying to invalidate it now?
“You've already decided you're going to close your heart against me”
I will not disrespect your beliefs, by entertaining them. So if close my heart you mean I will never agree with you, then yes, you are correct.
“I've tried helping you, but Jesus also told me not to dangle pearls in front of swine.”
So I am now likened to swine, I have been called dear sir.
“Your own biased views have led you into this hateful frenzy.”
Hateful frenzy? Saying I will not judge others based on their race, religion, sexual orientation is hateful.. on the contrary dear sir, to not judge based on such trivial things is the best thing that one can do.
“If you think you've won, then it's fine.”
Once again, there is no winning, there are but subjective opinions of beliefs.
You may keep your Christ, if it makes you happy, by all means, be happy. Yet I am more than content, probably more so with not having your Christ, than you are with having him
I will update when he answers.....